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Help me understand tuner options for Ultimo 4K

Discussion in 'Hardware: All Vu+ models' started by dyablo, Jun 20, 2018.

  1. dyablo

    dyablo Vu+ Newbie

    Messages:
    81
    Hello, since I’m tired of using USB tuners with my Uno 4K (and by the way only with the Turbo you get actual signal/snr values for dvb-t), I was evaluating an Ultimo 4K, but I have a few questions about my tuner options
    1) Can I have 1 x FBC dvb-s2x + 1 x dual dvb-t2 + 1 x dual dvb-t2 in the 3 slots? (so 8 sat tuners and 4 total dvb-t2 tuners)
    2) Can I also add a Vu+ Turbo usb, so a total of 5 dvb-t2 tuners? (4 internal + 1 external)
    3) I see there is also a single tuner dvb-T2 pluggable tuner: is it newer? is it more sensitive with better reception than the dual T2? Can I use two of them in two slots?
    4) Back to the dual T2, does it have issues when using both tuners, like digital blockiness or overheating or something?
    5) Can anybody compare the Vu+ Turbo (which I own and know) with the performances of the internal dvb-t2 tuner? Reception? Speed of zapping?



    tldr: basically can the B “fbc” slot be used for dvb-t2 tuner; and does anybody now if the single dvb-T2 tuner is any better than the dual T2 in real world performance
     
  2. Alexwilmac

    Alexwilmac BH Lover

    Messages:
    2,275
    Be careful: "dual" does not mean "double". A dual tuner is a DVB-T/T2 + DVB-C (so you can configure it for both type of services).
    What you need is a double (dual) tuner.
    About VU+Turbo, yes, I can confirm is the only one able to get good results in terms of sensitivity (and this also makes the zap spped). Obviously, the internal tuner are better but VU+turbo is not that far from them as other tuners are.
     
  3. dyablo

    dyablo Vu+ Newbie

    Messages:
    81
    I understand the are 3 internal dvb-T2 available from Vu+
    - single dvb-c/t2 (blue pcb with old style connection)
    - dual dvb-c/t2 (green pcb with old style connection)
    - ADVANCED dual dvb-T2 (blue pcb with new “fbc style” “pcie style” connection)

    The slots on decoders are such
    - Solo 4K: 1 old slot
    - Uno 4K: 1 new slot
    - Uno 4K SE: 1 new slot
    - Ultimo 4K: 2 new slot + 1 old slot
    - upcoming Duo 4K: 2 new slot

    So basically my only option for 8fbc sat tuners + 4 internal dvb-t2 tuners would be an Ultimo 4K with
    Slot A (new): FBC dvb-s2x
    Slot B (new): Advanced dual dvb-T2
    Slot C (old): dual dvb-C/T2

    but I understand that the Advanced dual dvb-T2 spotted at ANGA2017 was never actually delivered right?
    But sure it will be out when the Duo 4K is out because that’s the only option for internal dvb-T for the Duo 4K.

    So for now I could have max 3 dvb-t2 tuners on the Ultimo 4K
    Slot C (old): dual dvb-C/T2
    USB: Turbo single dvb-C/T2

    then this fall I can add an Advanced dual dvb-T2 in slot B.

    37_B3_D03_B-_D6_B6-4_C8_E-_BF8_F-9042_C9183324.jpg

    37_A8_D624-2_DEE-4_F35-9727-_A1_FEFD2_EE3_F9.png
     
  4. dyablo

    dyablo Vu+ Newbie

    Messages:
    81
    If only the FBC dvb-C tuner was also dvb-T2...it could be used now in the slot B of the Ultimo 4K for dvb-T2...
     
  5. dyablo

    dyablo Vu+ Newbie

    Messages:
    81
    I wanna stress that in the Duo 4K pdf brochure it reads “oder Dual DVB-T2” in the tuner section, so for sure by this fall we should have a dual DVB-T2 tuner with the new style slot connector available.

    One and a half year after its first appearance at ANGA2017. Makes you wonder what took them so long.
     
  6. Tururu

    Tururu Vu+ User+++

    Messages:
    1,006
    @dyablo
    According to what is called VU+ dual it is double, never refers for example to DVB-T/DVB-C.
    To not get involved instead of "double" we call it Twin and solved issue.

    Slost 1 and 2 ==> FBC.
    Slot 3 ==> Old connector.

    FBC...Anga2017.
    FBC Dual DVB-S2 (4+4 Tuner)....
    FBC Dual DVB-C (8 Tuner).
    Avanced Dual DVB-T2 (2 Tuner)
    FBC Dual DVB-S2x (4+4 Tuner) pending 2018.

    VU+Ultimo4K.(Slot 3/Old connector).
    Simple DVB-C/T/T2 (1 Tuner)...........................ok
    Dual(Twin) DVB-C/T/T2 (2 Tuner)......................ok
    Dual(Twin) DVB-S/S2 (2 Tuner), PCB blue/green....ok
    Simple DVB-S/S2 (1 Tuner), PCB green (pending/I'll see if it supports it).

    FBC...Anga2018.
    FBC Dual DVB-S2 (4+4 Tuner)..............ok
    FBC Dual DVB-C (8 Tuner).................ok
    Avanced Dual DVB-T2 (2 Tuner)pending ==> 2017
    FBC Dual DVB-S2x (4+4 Tuner) Already on sale in a store spain.

    FBC Dual DVB-S2x (4+4 Tuner)
    The plate is the same/silkscreen, the difference is the chip it has.
    I arrive this week, verifying and comparing with the VU+zero4K(DVB-S2X).


    old connector....
    Simple Tuner DVB-T2/T/C (1 Tuner), PCB blue/Already sold
    Dual (Twin) DVB-C/T/T2(2 Tuner) PCB green.........ok
    Dual (Twin) DVB-S/S2 (2 Tuner),.PCB blue/green....ok
    Simple DVB-S/S2 (1 Tuner), PCB green (pending/I'll see if it supports it).

    ***********************************************************
    Right.
    Slot A (new): FBC dvb-s2x (4+4 Tuner) Already on sale in a store spain.
    Slot B (new): Advanced dual dvb-T2 (2 Tuner) ==> pending Anga2017
    Slot C (old): Twin dvb-C/T2 (2 Tuner)
    ***********************************************************


    In the VU + Ultimo4k never use USB tuners, in the VU+DUO2/VU+Solo4K, yes.
    First use the usb-TDT and then the internal TDT tuner.

    USB-TDT RTL2832 (RTL2832+R820T)..ok
    USB-TDT AF9015..ok
    USB-TDT Avermedia A850.. ok.
    USB-TDT Dib0700 (PlayTV/PS3), 2Tuner/twin.. ok.
    USB-TDT AF9015 (NPG Real DVB-2T) 2Tuner/twin.. ok.
    USB-SATELITE TBS5925, (DUO2).. ok.


    The change of satellite to DTT or 3 seconds.
    From internal DTT to internal DTT, the difference of change does not reach the second.
    The intern is always faster.

    The sensitivity of the new DTT blue tuner, no idea, I will ask in the store.
     
    dyablo likes this.
  7. dyablo

    dyablo Vu+ Newbie

    Messages:
    81
    Very interesting Tururu.

    So channel change from internal dvb-S to internal dvb-T is less than a second? That’s a big advantage of Ultimo 4K, Solo 4K and Duo 4K, compared to Uno 4K + usb dvb-T. Now if only FCC also worked with dvb-T, we would have top speed in channel zapping of a mixed sat+dtt bouquet...

    About the new “dvb-s2x fbc” tuner sold in a shop in Spain, do we know if it supports multistream services? (like the Zero 4K)

    Interesting that you mention TBS5925, as it supports multistream (not sure if only with SatDreamGR or also with BH and OBH).

    I wanna add another interesting usb tuner to the discussion: the “dvbsky t330”, also found under the name “HMP Combo”. I just tested it with my Uno 4K and I think I found my new favorite usb dvb-T2 tuner. I tried a difficult channel and I found it is slightly more sensitive than the Vu+ Turbo (and the big problem with the Turbo is that you can’t use 2 or 3 or 4, just 1, otherwise the Vu+ freezes). Now I need to know if 4 dvbsky t330 can be used together.

    In the end a Uno 4K SE pimped with
    - the new dvb-s2x tuner currently sold in the Spanish shop (I hope it has multistream)
    - 4 x dvbsky t330 usb dvb-t2 tuners
    - an Easymouse2 usb smartmouse (so a total of 2 card readers, 1 internal + 1 external)
    - a 500GB/1TB internal SSD

    could probably give the Ultimo 4K (and the upcoming Duo 4K) a run for its money...

    The big advantage of the Ultimo as mentioned would be the under 1 second switch from a dvb-s to a dvb-t channel...which isn’t true for USB tuners...if only the FCC plugin was smart enough to prefetch the next dvb-t channel with an “hidden PiP” or something...I think it would totally possible in software...if somebody knows the people developing FastChannelChange, let them know...just make a PiP but don’t show the window...why can’t we have mixed FCC between dvb-s and dvb-t...

    Of course that wouldn’t solve the 3 seconds delay when switching between unrelated (not sequential) dvb-s to dvb-t channels...in that case internal would still be king...

    Anyway, maybe I’m actually gonna order an Uno 4K SE (upgrading from my current Uno 4K because I need the HDMI IN). But first I have to investigate the 4 x dvbsky t330 (or “HMP combo”) setup, currently I have only one. Good thing I have 10 free USB ports with my powered hubs.
     
  8. dyablo

    dyablo Vu+ Newbie

    Messages:
    81
    Oh I forgot to stress another advantage of Vu+ internal dvb-t and Vu+ Turbo dvb-t: you can see actual SNR and AGC values of the signal.

    With other USB dvb-t tuners, SNR always reads “0%” and AGC is a random percentage with little significance, sadly.

    So if you wanna be able to read Quality (SNR) and Strenght (AGC) of your dvb-t channels, and wanna have more than one dvb-t tuner, go for the Ultimo 4K or the upcoming Duo 4K.

    If you’re ok with just one dvb-t tuner, buy any Vu+ stb + 1 x Turbo. But...why? What’s the point if you can’t even do a PiP or a recording with 2 dvb-t channels? After spending hundreds of €€€? Vu+ should at least have made the Turbo a dual (twin) tuner...or allow people to use 2 Turbos..
     
  9. Tururu

    Tururu Vu+ User+++

    Messages:
    1,006
    Speak for the translation (Spanish / English).

    Channel change VU+DUO2.
    SAT ==> Internal DTT 2 seconds.
    SAT ==> DTT-USB 3 seconds.
    DTT-USB ==> DTT-USB 3 seconds.
    DTT Int. ==> DTT Int. 2 seconds.

    Channel change VU+Ultimo4K.
    SAT ==> Internal DTT -2 seconds.
    DTT Int. ==> DTT Int. -1 seconds.


    Never buy the USB VU + Turbo and compare what they are/quality.
    I'll have to cheer up and look at the VU+Ultimo4K.

    With the VU+DUO2 you can play as you want, a photo.

    2 x USB-TDT Dib0700 (PlayTV/PS3), 2Tuner/twin.. ok.
    --------
    1 x USB-TDT Dib0700 (PlayTV/PS3), 2Tuner/twin.. ok.
    2 x USB-TDT RTL2832 (RTL2832+R820T)..ok
    --------
    1 x Internal DTT NIM (SSH108) DVB-T2... ok
    1 x USB-TDT Dib0700 (PlayTV/PS3), 2Tuner/twin.. ok.
    3 x USB-TDT RTL2832 (RTL2832+R820T)..ok
    ---------
    2 x USB-TDT AF9015 (NPG Real DVB-2T) 2Tuner/twin.. ok.

    Sintonizadores_TDT_pruebas3_img_a10212.jpg


    With a TDT tuner, you record a mux/frequencies.
    All the channels that the mux/frequency has.
    In tests with tuner twin, up to 8 recordings without problems (4+4).
    With the USB without problems with this test.

    .
     
  10. Tururu

    Tururu Vu+ User+++

    Messages:
    1,006
    As we are with issues of DTT2, some information.
    In tests conducted in Germany with DTT2 channels.
    HD channels go with H265.
    If a partner has more information and wants to share, thank you.
    In Spain, the tests on DTT2 are with 4K channels (UHD) also with H265, the subject seems clear, we will need the receiver to support H265 to work with the new channels that broadcast on DTT2, both HD and 4K (UHD).
    -----
    Como estamos con temas de TDT2, algo de informacion.
    En las pruebas realizadas en alemania con canales TDT2.
    Los canales HD van con H265.
    Si algun compañero tiene mas informacion y la quiere compartir, gracias.
    En España, las pruebas en TDT2 son con canales 4K (UHD) tambien con H265, el tema parece claro, necesitaremos que el receptor soporte H265 para funcionar con los nuevos canales que emitan en TDT2, tanto HD como 4K (UHD).
    En español es para mi.

    La2_HD_demo.jpg
     
  11. dyablo

    dyablo Vu+ Newbie

    Messages:
    81
    I have an important update on this tuner (dvbsky t330 dvb-T2) and it’s bad news: unfortunately only one can be used at a time, just like the Turbo, so maybe it’s a thing that happens to all T2 usb tuners. BUT you can use a Turbo + a t330. So to recap:
    Vu+ Turbo + Vu+ Turbo = doesn’t work (freeze on boot)
    dvbsky t330 + dvbsky t330 = doesn’t work (one of the two is identified as “dvb-t” instead of “dvb-t2” and it doesn’t even work anyway)
    Vu+ Turbo + dvbsky t330 = IT WORKS (both identified as “dvb-T2”)

    So I found a way to have two external T2 tuners but they have to be different.
    Now let’s see if I can go up to three by adding my next target in the quest for usb dvb-t2 tuners, the “Sundtek MediaTv Pro”.
    And if anyone knows a fourth one (T2, not T), please tell me. (pctv 292e doesn’t have drivers)
     
  12. Tururu

    Tururu Vu+ User+++

    Messages:
    1,006
    The new tuner DTT2/C blue simple is more sensitive than the old versions in tests like DTT.
    Verified with very low level/signal channels.
    Indicates more signal/SNR and quality/AGC (not important).
    The important thing, it does not pixelate when the others Tuner pixelate, is more stable

    Apparently it responds the same if I remove the LTE filter for mobile telephony, cut on the mux59 (at 15 meters a repeater).
    The programmable control unit JOHANSSON Model 6605 (TV+TV/SAT+Test) that I have, since last year needs the LTE filters to avoid problems.
    In the community, we have JOHANSSON Model 6601 (TV+Test) similar without satellite, also with LTE filters.
    With the channels/mux already adjusted with the control unit, all fine.
    For tests, unprocessed antenna signal.
    One of the repeaters is 100 kilometers away.

    The input and output connections change compared to the other DTT tuner.

    Tests:
    New..Blue.
    DVB-T NIM (TT2L08) (DVB-T2) single.
    Old ... Green.
    Vuplus DVB-T NIM (CXD1978) (DVB-T) single.
    VUPlus DVB-T NIM (SSH108) (DVB-T2) single.
    Vuplus DVB-T NIM (TT3L10) (DVB-T2) double/twin.

    The receiver never blocked during the tests, however low the signal was, in some cases, impossible to see anything on the screen.
    With a USB-DTT tuner the receiver is blocked if the signal is bad, when processing the image.
    Defects/noise/pixel in the marked image.
    -----------------
    El nuevo tuner TDT2/C azul sencillo es mas sensible que las viejas versiones en pruebas como TDT.
    Verificado con canales muy bajos nivel/señal.
    Indica mas señal/SNR y calidad/AGC (no es importante).
    Lo importante, no pixela cuando los otros Tuner pixelan, es mas estable

    Aparentemente responde igual si quito el filtro LTE para la telefonia movil, corte en el mux59 (a 15 metros un repetidor).
    La centralita programable JOHANSSON Modelo 6605 (TV+TV/SAT+Test) que tengo, desde el año pasado necesita los filtros LTE para no tener problemas.
    En la comunidad, tenemos JOHANSSON Modelo 6601 (TV+Test) similar sin satelite, tambien con los filtros LTE.
    Con los canales/mux ya ajustados con la centralita, todos bien.
    Para las pruebas, señal de antena sin procesar.
    Uno de los repetidores esta a 100 kilometros.

    Las conexiones de entrada y salida cambian comparando con los demas tuner TDT.

    Pruebas:
    Nuevo..Azul.
    Vuplus DVB-T NIM(TT2L08) (DVB-T2) single.
    Viejos..Verdes.
    Vuplus DVB-T NIM (CXD1978) (DVB-T) single.
    Vuplus DVB-T NIM (SSH108) (DVB-T2) single.
    Vuplus DVB-T NIM (TT3L10) (DVB-T2) double/twin.

    El receptor nunca se bloqueo durante las pruebas, por muy baja que fuera la señal, en algunos casos, imposible de ver algo en pantalla.
    Con un tuner USB-TDT el receptor se bloquea si la señal es mala, al procesar la imagen.
    Defectos/ruido/pixel en la imagen marcados.
    En español es para mi.

    Tuner_TDT_VUmas_111.jpg
     
  13. dyablo

    dyablo Vu+ Newbie

    Messages:
    81
    Very useful testing, thanks.
    So the best current tuner is the single tuner dvb-T2 with blue pcb and old connector (not suitable for the upcoming Duo 4K).

    I wonder if the dual dvb-T2 with blue pcb and new “fbc style” connector will be just as good.

    Based on all this, my current “dream” setup is a Vu+ Ultimo 4K with:
    1) Slot A fbc: dvb-s2X + MiS FBC tuner (yet to be released)
    2) Slot B fbc: dual dvb-T2 blue pcb with new connector (yet to be released)
    3) Slot C old style: single dvb-T2 blue pcb with old connector (the one tururu tested)

    for a grand total of 8 sat tuners and 3 dvb-t2 tuners with the best reception.
     

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